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#1 Golden-Star

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:01 PM

At the moment, the Nova Refuge Wiki is in a bad state. There are very few pages, the info in the pages isn't that good, and I think we can do something about it.

I am suggesting, if Scorp is okay with it, that we all make a gigantic push to change the wiki for the better. This would allow people easier access to information regarding NR for their stories and would mean that not every question involving NR had to be answered by Scorp himself on the Q & A thread.

I am willing to do a lot of work if other people are with me, because i'd like to see an NR database up there on the Interwebz :D .

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#2 Wang Fire

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:04 PM

Well, first of all, there technically isn't an actual wiki right now. Secondly, Scorp's been trying to get one up, but... Remember all those SQL errors people were getting a few days ago? Yeah, that was because Scorp tried to add a wiki and, as you can guess:

Posted Image

That said, I'd still love to finally get a wiki up and running for NR, though I'm concerned it may be tough to separate out the actual canon from mere conjecture and "wouldn't it be awesome if...?"s.

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#3 Golden-Star

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:11 PM

Well, first of all, there technically isn't an actual wiki right now. Secondly, Scorp's been trying to get one up, but... Remember all those SQL errors people were getting a few days ago? Yeah, that was because Scorp tried to add a wiki and, as you can guess:

Posted Image

That said, I'd still love to finally get a wiki up and running for NR, though I'm concerned it may be tough to separate out the actual canon from mere conjecture and "wouldn't it be awesome if...?"s.


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#4 Wang Fire

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:16 PM

...

Why do I get the feeling people weren't supposed to find that yet because even the Mods didn't know it was working?

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#5 Saber-Scorpion

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:22 PM

That's not my wiki. Another member started that one. I had nothing to do with it.

The wiki I installed is still in a fledgling, completely un-edited state here on the Nova Refuge domain: http://wiki.novarefu...x.php/Main_Page

-Scorp

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#6 Golden-Star

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:25 PM

That's not my wiki. Another member started that one. I had nothing to do with it.

The wiki I installed is still in a fledgling, completely un-edited state here on the Nova Refuge domain: http://wiki.novarefu...x.php/Main_Page

Oh well... can we help you with it anyways?


'Cause that's a lot of work to be done before it goes public.


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#7 V.Metalic

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 12:59 AM

I would like to help there... I can help out with the boxes of characters, factions, vehicles, ships, etc. Thought I mst figure out how to make it that only what you will want to, not that what you will dont show will be missing... like:

Name= John Smith
Affilation= Xarkon
Date of Birth= 301 PA
Date of Death= 333 PA
Rank= Captain

This is when John Smith will die, but what if he didnt? Ideally it will be like this:

Name= John Smith
Affilation= Xarkon
Date of Birth= 301 PA
Rank= Captain

So far, I dont know how to make it, only in the way like:

Name= John Smith
Affilation= Xarkon
Date of Birth= 301 PA
Date of Death=
Rank= Captain

The place which you will dont fill out will be empty, which dont looks good. But if you want, I can send you out the basic layout of this, and later you will remake it :) If you want a help.

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#8 Squirrel

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 01:31 AM

Making sure people are well versed in the Media Wiki syntax is a must for a good looking Wiki. You may also want to see to protecting pages by making membership necessary for editing and then making membership approve-only. That you'll avoid any Anon vandalism. This has been the typical setup of public Wikis I've created for people in the past.

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#9 Maverick-Werewolf

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:07 AM

I also think it'd be nice if we could avoid blatantly putting up spoilers. For instance, if a character was/is killed at some point in the story, put it under a section hidden by some kind of spoiler alerts instead of slapping it directly onto the page in plain sight.

Yeah, I don't really know anything about all this wiki-coding-mess, I'm just saying. I hate to see tons of spoilers in plain sight. :P

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#10 V.Metalic

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:18 AM

This is in fact pretty easy, especially when you can use Java script :D Otherwise you can only have a marker which says "Spoiler! This next ... blah blah blah" And after it "End of spoiler." It will inform the viewer there is spoiler, but if he will still read it, it will be totally up to him. With Java scirpting it is possible to put this text into a... "bumble", which you can make hideable. So who will want to read it, will must click a "Show" button, read it, and then again "Hide" it.

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#11 Squirrel

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 04:18 AM

The issue I can see with spoilers is the progressive nature of the books. By the end of one novel a character may be a confidant of Scorp, only to dramatically betray him in the next title. Bearing this in mind, it might be worth excluding all information relative to the books. What I mean is, the timeline of the Wiki ends with Page 1 of Warrior Born - a snapshot in time. By all means include biographies of the various characters, but exclude anything that happens to them in the books. The obvious drawback is the omission of a great deal of content.

An alternative would be multiple wikis. Instead of having a 'Nova Refuge' wiki, have a 'Warrior Born' wiki, followed by a separate 'Saber's Edge' wiki and so on. At the release of each novel a new wiki is created and all the pages from the most recent wiki are copied over. From there the great process of updating a new wiki to fit the changes brought in by the latest novel. This is a bit clunky, requires a lot of work and consumes a lot of space (Though this could be reduced through references to previous wikis for unaltered data, instead of duplicating the same content.) but would succeed in separating the events of books and would allow users to safely read the wiki relative to their progress through the series.

Finally you could create a system with spoiler sections like on the forums. Personally I think it looks a bit ugly and you would have issues with characters, settings and big events that are brought in by other novels - you wouldn't want to mark an entire pages as a spoilers.

Ultimately there's no easy way to keep the wiki completely spoiler free. I've made a few suggestions but I definitely think this needs a lot of discussion before people start adding content to the wiki willy-nilly.

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#12 V.Metalic

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 04:28 AM

The issue I can see with spoilers is the progressive nature of the books. By the end of one novel a character may be a confidant of Scorp, only to dramatically betray him in the next title. Bearing this in mind, it might be worth excluding all information relative to the books. What I mean is, the timeline of the Wiki ends with Page 1 of Warrior Born - a snapshot in time. By all means include biographies of the various characters, but exclude anything that happens to them in the books. The obvious drawback is the omission of a great deal of content.

An alternative would be multiple wikis. Instead of having a 'Nova Refuge' wiki, have a 'Warrior Born' wiki, followed by a separate 'Saber's Edge' wiki and so on. At the release of each novel a new wiki is created and all the pages from the most recent wiki are copied over. From there the great process of updating a new wiki to fit the changes brought in by the latest novel. This is a bit clunky, requires a lot of work and consumes a lot of space (Though this could be reduced through references to previous wikis for unaltered data, instead of duplicating the same content.) but would succeed in separating the events of books and would allow users to safely read the wiki relative to their progress through the series.

Finally you could create a system with spoiler sections like on the forums. Personally I think it looks a bit ugly and you would have issues with characters, settings and big events that are brought in by other novels - you wouldn't want to mark an entire pages as a spoilers.

Ultimately there's no easy way to keep the wiki completely spoiler free. I've made a few suggestions but I definitely think this needs a lot of discussion before people start adding content to the wiki willy-nilly.


Actually this suggestion is pretty stupid. If you will really manage 3 wikis ar once, which are about the same, dont even make one than. Instead, there are only two options. Make is that the sections or whole pages are spoilers (in case of pages, it will be right on the top like "Work in Progress page". The other is, no spoilers. Something like making a separate wiki for each book is time-consuming, space-consuming and hard to maintain. Sorry, but I am definitly against this, if any voting will occur, and will never accept it.

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#13 Squirrel

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:08 AM

Actually this suggestion is pretty stupid.

Such a great way to start a communication. Really sets the lovely, condescending tone of your reply.

If you will really manage 3 wikis ar once, which are about the same, dont even make one than.

So nothing is better than something? I fail to see what your point is. If we can 'really manage 3 wikis at once' doesn't that show our fantastic ability at organisation and communal accomplishment? If something is well within our ability, doesn't it make sense to do it? The 'This thing or nothing' attitude is rather silly.

Make is that the sections or whole pages are spoilers (in case of pages, it will be right on the top like "Work in Progress page". The other is, no spoilers. Something like making a separate wiki for each book is time-consuming, space-consuming and hard to maintain. Sorry, but I am definitly against this, if any voting will occur, and will never accept it.

Yeah, I agree on this. It would do the job very well and effectively combines the idea of having a separate wiki for every book into one wiki, having a separate section for the events of every book that effect an article. However this isn't without it's faults. If an important event occurs in a novel that is so broad that it needs to have its own page, yet the title of the page is a spoiler in itself, we would have trouble. For example (Events of Warrior Born discussed here:
Spoiler


Something like making a separate wiki for each book is time-consuming, space-consuming and hard to maintain.

Again, I agree on this somewhat. Yes it would be somewhat difficult to maintain and it would be somewhat space consuming, but not as bad as you think on either accounts. Through use of references to older wikis for articles that have not been updated in accordance with a new novel (Take the Fox Walker for example), a new page would not have created for it. The space consumed by the new wikis would be strictly for events or new characters that are specific to a novel. It's not much more difficult to maintain than updating multiple sections on a single page would be and takes much bigger steps in the effort of separating the contents of one novel from another. Yes, it is cumbersome and I do feel I'm arguing for it too much, but it is a possible solution that should be properly considered.

Sorry, but I am definitly against this, if any voting will occur, and will never accept it.

Hey, no need to apologise V. I understand (some of) what you say. You are being rather hostile and obnoxious though. You can pull the whole 'I speak my mind, first amendment blah blah blah' but you are being rude. Consider all the possibilities, write none of them off, and feel free to point out flaws and advantages in any solution. Acceptance to other ideas is a great trait to have V.

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#14 V.Metalic

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:39 AM

So nothing is better than something? I fail to see what your point is. If we can 'really manage 3 wikis at once' doesn't that show our fantastic ability at organisation and communal accomplishment? If something is well within our ability, doesn't it make sense to do it? The 'This thing or nothing' attitude is rather silly.

Yes, in some situations making nothing is better than trying to make several thigns at once.

Yeah, I agree on this. It would do the job very well and effectively combines the idea of having a separate wiki for every book into one wiki, having a separate section for the events of every book that effect an article. However this isn't without it's faults. If an important event occurs in a novel that is so broad that it needs to have its own page, yet the title of the page is a spoiler in itself, we would have trouble. For example (Events of Warrior Born discussed here:

Spoiler

Well, can you say me at least 3 examples of wikis, where the wikis from one wiki group were concentrated on just one thing? I will help you out with one, startrek.wikia.com. As you can see there is 8 various wikias regarding Star Trek, but they are all reasonable. One is canon, other is licensed, but not canon, other is fanon, than there is a Klingdon encyclopedia and dictionary. But as you can see, non of them are centered around just "one thing", like a book, cartoon or TV series. If you cant figure it out yourself why, then dont think about it, I cant help you with my limited English.

And about the spoiler you posted there, you dont have an imagination to name the page so no one will knows what happens here? Also, you can use a way how to warn the viewer before he eventually enters the page. YOu will have a middle page, which is a connection between the page with the link and the spoiler page. Another possibility. If you really want so much to take the spoiler thing on different wikia, then have only ONE. Why separate each book on its own wikia? When Saber-Scorpion will write 10 NR books, will you also have to manage 10+1 wikias? Cant all these 10 books be on one wikia, because it doesnt matters if you read only some books, when you actually have a means to buy them. If there is a book which you havent read while the others you did, it is your fault.

Again, I agree on this somewhat. Yes it would be somewhat difficult to maintain and it would be somewhat space consuming, but not as bad as you think on either accounts. Through use of references to older wikis for articles that have not been updated in accordance with a new novel (Take the Fox Walker for example), a new page would not have created for it. The space consumed by the new wikis would be strictly for events or new characters that are specific to a novel. It's not much more difficult to maintain than updating multiple sections on a single page would be and takes much bigger steps in the effort of separating the contents of one novel from another. Yes, it is cumbersome and I do feel I'm arguing for it too much, but it is a possible solution that should be properly considered.

So you are now signing for the place of the man who will maintain them all, when you think everyone can handle it. You suggest it, you do it. ... You really didnt get the meaning of space consuming... I dont know much about this at all, but I am sure that to have 3 differnt wikias, Saber-Scorpion will must have a space for the wikia's basic coding, each of the wikia's codings. If all the pages and all will be on 3 wikias doesnt matters like when they will be only on one, but running three wikias must take some space, and when I take my settings again, what will he do when he will wrote 10 books? Will he have to be a server for 11 wikias? And for maintaining, who will decide what will go where? You will have a new book, and you will have to divide what can be in first wikia, what can be in second, what can be in third, etc. This also takes the part time consuming. But you seems like you have pretty a lot of spare time.

Hey, no need to apologise V. I understand (some of) what you say. You are being rather hostile and obnoxious though. You can pull the whole 'I speak my mind, first amendment blah blah blah' but you are being rude. Consider all the possibilities, write none of them off, and feel free to point out flaws and advantages in any solution. Acceptance to other ideas is a great trait to have V.

I said my opinion, which is simple: I am against everything in your suggestion. I considered it, and I dont see any great advantages in it, aside that the basic informations and story informations will be separated. And no matter what you say will persuade me to change it.

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#15 Squirrel

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:01 AM

I said my opinion, which is simple: I am against everything in your suggestion. I considered it, and I dont see any great advantages in it, aside that the basic informations and story informations will be separated. And no matter what you say will persuade me to change it.

Now this is the problem. I can't discuss ideas with an obnoxious ignoramus. Being incredibly closed minded like this makes it very difficult for me to elaborate further on what I meant by that suggestion. If nothing I say will make a difference, then I won't say anything.


I do have a full length response and further discussion of this one suggestion saved in a text document if anyone is interested in reading it. However I think my previous explanation of this single suggestion is adequate.

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#16 Absoul The Reindeer

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 07:27 AM

For example (Events of Warrior Born discussed here:

Spoiler



Funny because there's no page on Wookieepedia about the death of Sidious, or Obi-Wan, or Vader. It just says so on their page. In fact, there isn't even a seperate wiki for Phantom Menace! OMG :shock: :o

Say you do a page for Seth Electric-Eel. It's pretty obvious by his name he's an Enomeg, so no need to spoiler that. Then, when you get to the end, you would have something like.

"Electric Eel was sent with the other Enomegs to kill Zegaldorph. (Or whatever you want to put here regarding his mission. Warning, major spoiler)
Spoiler


Or something like that.

#17 Squirrel

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 08:12 AM

Funny because there's no page on Wookieepedia about the death of Sidious, or Obi-Wan, or Vader. It just says so on their page. In fact, there isn't even a seperate wiki for Phantom Menace! OMG :shock: :o

Wookieepedia has no interest in protecting readers from spoilers. Also, unlike Star Wars, Nova Refuge is constantly being added to and changed by the creators. Jade may be a loyal Grimm Super-Soldier at the end of Warrior Born, but by the end if Saber's Edge she could have betrayed her foster father and joined Zygbar! That would not be something you would want to read after finishing Warrior Born.

Also, allow me to explain why I chose that example.
Spoiler

Sure, it's not a perfect example, but it gets my point across. Of course we're not limited to single events, names and settings can also produce spoiler material.

Say you do a page for Seth Electric-Eel. It's pretty obvious by his name he's an Enomeg, so no need to spoiler that. Then, when you get to the end, you would have something like.

"Electric Eel was sent with the other Enomegs to kill Zegaldorph. (Or whatever you want to put here regarding his mission. Warning, major spoiler)

Spoiler


Or something like that.

I can't help but think it would be far more sensible to have that sort of information repeated in the infobox to the right of the page in the format of a date. Furthermore, sticking spoiler sections around the page, complete with hidden sections like on the forums, is just plain ugly.


I do have another suggestion though; we could have a banner at the top of each Wiki page stating, very simply, 'Warning: This page contains content from Novel Title and earlier.' yet you would still have the whole 'Title is a spoiler' issue. Furthermore a reader would have to keep up to date with the entire series to feel safe reading the Wiki. Whereas with multiple Wikis, each only containing information 'Up until Book #1:Warrior Born', users could read the wiki to match the pace at which they read through the series.

A good example of this would be the page for Saber-Scorpion. Instead of only being able to read Saber-Scorpion's page after you'd read the most recent book, you could simply click on the wiki relative to your progress through the series and only be exposed to information up until the end of the book.

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#18 V.Metalic

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:30 PM

Wookieepedia has no interest in protecting readers from spoilers. Also, unlike Star Wars, Nova Refuge is constantly being added to and changed by the creators. Jade may be a loyal Grimm Super-Soldier at the end of Warrior Born, but by the end if Saber's Edge she could have betrayed her foster father and joined Zygbar! That would not be something you would want to read after finishing Warrior Born.

Really? Then you dont read it much. The spoilers are here. Here is an example, look on the part "A broken man" and look down.

I do have another suggestion though; we could have a banner at the top of each Wiki page stating, very simply, 'Warning: This page contains content from Novel Title and earlier.' yet you would still have the whole 'Title is a spoiler' issue. Furthermore a reader would have to keep up to date with the entire series to feel safe reading the Wiki. Whereas with multiple Wikis, each only containing information 'Up until Book #1:Warrior Born', users could read the wiki to match the pace at which they read through the series.

This suggestion was already said there, but you skipped it without even noticing it.

Make is that the sections or whole pages are spoilers (in case of pages, it will be right on the top like "Work in Progress page".


But I agree with this, when you will have a page which contains the spoiler, it will be on the top of the page, and than in the page so you will know about it.

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#19 Squirrel

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 08:58 PM

But I agree with this, when you will have a page which contains the spoiler, it will be on the top of the page, and than in the page so you will know about it.

I extended it, but good suggesting nonetheless. By mentioning the book the reader must have read to avoid spoilers we can avoid issues that might arise from someone having read Warrior Born but not Saber's Edge.

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#20 V.Metalic

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:07 AM

I extended it, but good suggesting nonetheless. By mentioning the book the reader must have read to avoid spoilers we can avoid issues that might arise from someone having read Warrior Born but not Saber's Edge.

Yes, and you will must have to be careful when naming an event, like the one you said me in spoiler tag. Somehow that you dont know what it is, but when it will be normal, the person will knew one spoiler, but he will dont know a details when, how, by who. I better prefer to be careful. But I think that we can finally agree on something.

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