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xarkon vs victory who would win?


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#61 Golden-Star

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:13 PM

Exactly. The Skrakki's one objective is to find food and space so that they can breed and create more of themselves. It's the one major objective that practically every living thing shares: to do what it can to carry on its genetic material to a new generation.

But Skrakki Hives are gigantic. They can grow to the size of planets, and when there's no space on a given planet they shoot off eggs in little 'shuttles' to new planets. They breed quickly and so very quickly (compared to Humans or any other sentient species) use up the space on that planet. And so they shoot off more eggs in different directions to find more planets to live on etc. So while they may not deliberately set off to destroy Humanity or Helexith or Harmony, by the very coding of their society they will eventually end up fighting one or all of these factions in order to hold or gain territory.

So you're right in saying that they are nothing to do with the flood, but that doesn't mean they won't end up as a threat to all living things in Nova Refuge and beyond. Much like the Tyranids in fact. Do you wonder why the Imperium fight them? It's because they are a threat to Humanity in Warhammer 40k just like Skrakki are a threat to Humanity in NR.

Master is right I think. With their better experience fighting Skrakki, the Helexith might well defeat them with enough soldiers left to them crush Humanity and Harmony. Except if that's the case why haven't they already invaded Humanity and Harmony? My guess is that they are less powerful than they make out, otherwise they would already be conquerors of the Universe. Given that they probably wouldn't stand up to the Skrakki alone, they would probably try and lead them to Harmony or Human Space so that they can have their enemies wipe themselves out.

If Helexith was attacked by the Skrakki then I think they would wipe each other out, which may be a way that Scorp gets Helexith involved in the UItimate War while having Humanity survive. So I think Helexith could probably fight any of the other factions on their own terms, but if caught by surprise or fighting more than one faction then they would be outmatched.

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#62 Yava

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:18 PM

I meant the flood's hivemind is remarkably inteligent. He also holds grudges(probably), the Skrakki are stupid. Without their hivemind the Flood could still do quite a bit. This is not the case with Skrakki, they would probably go crazy and eat each other.

#63 Lord_Capulet

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:57 PM

Interesting point, bringing up the Skrakki. I hadn't even considered them as a faction, considering their low intelligence. However, if they are as fertile and mobile as mentioned, then they would pose quite a threat, at least to any army unfortunate enough to wander into their territory. However, are the Skrakki aggressive enough to seek out and destroy the other factions? Spreading offspring is one thing, but I think organized campaigns of conquest/destruction may be too much to ask of the savage beasts. <_< Right?

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#64 Golden-Star

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 03:25 PM

However, are the Skrakki aggressive enough to seek out and destroy the other factions? Spreading offspring is one thing, but I think organized campaigns of conquest/destruction may be too much to ask of the savage beasts. <_< Right?


You're right I guess. The Skrakki would never knowingly attack any one faction, so I'm guessing it's more likely that they just attack everybody at the same time Posted Image. I was just posing the idea that Scorp may use the Skrakki as a realistic way for Helexith to be conquered and Harmony/Humans to live happily ever after Posted Image.

@Yava: Ah. I see what you mean. You're right, the Skrakki are very stupid and they definitely wouldn't hold onto their meagre intelligence without the help of a Hivemind. Conversely, a Hivemind's intelligence increases the more Skrakki make it up, possibly allowing them to use or even develop technology; hold grudges and make meaningful invasions.

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#65 master18

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 04:11 AM

I agree that they probably wouldn't attack us on purpose, but if they do attack during our three way war, then it will be because they, as Jingle said, are trying to spread.
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#66 Yava

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 04:14 AM

The human nations probably have defenses up to prevent Skrakki or Mahlok or anything like that from entering human space

#67 Horatius

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 06:50 AM

The defenses of Human space are probably CONON supported, which is their biggest flaw. Once the civil war begins, CONON will dissolve. The factions themselves will be much more concerned with fighting each other than wasting resources on backwater borders that haven't been attacked since before anyone's grandfather was born. The defenses will slowly diminish as the war drags on and overtaxes each nation, so Humanity as a whole will become more vulnerable to invasion.

Let me be clear: Helexith is one of the strongest factions out there. But I think Harmony is stronger. When the Empire first expanded, it was stopped by the Sarran and Achmer individually. When the two races joined together it seemed like a standstill between Harmony and Helexith, but Harmony never launched a campaign to invade Mahlok space. If each half of Harmony could hold off the Empire, a unified campaign could probably defeat Helexith.

The Mahlok know this, and wouldn't launch an attack unless Humanity presented a perfect opportunity for invasion. I imagine this would happen later on in the war after some failed negotiations between Harmony and a few of the Humans. This weakness would probably involve a third party (like the Skrakki) diverting attention of the Big Four. Helexith has spent so many years preparing for this civil war; they're not going to jump the gun on the invasion.

Then out spake brave Horatius,

The Captain of the Gate:

"To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.

And how can man die better

Than facing fearful odds,

For the ashes of his fathers,

And the temples of his gods."

 


#68 Golden-Star

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 02:33 PM

Yes, you're right Horatius. I had never considered the fact that Harmony have so much power compared to Helexith. Another of Helexith's weaknesses is that the bond of their Alliance (Mahlok and Slashrim) is purely by fear. This has lead to some rogue Slashrim factions, and may lead to more widespread revolution.

So Helexith wouldn't invade Human Space unless they were sure that Harmony would not get involved. But can we be entirely sure that Harmony would help the Humans anyway? It hasn't been that long since the Humans committed a Genocide of Native races on Nova Terra, and they are still less than welcoming towards the Natives. Yes, there is a small Sarran minority in Yavakaro, but I don't think now that that would be enough to drive the whole of Harmony into a war against Helexith. They would win, but they would suffer heavy losses.

What do you think of the likelihood of Harmony interfering if Helexith invades?

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#69 Yava

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 09:37 PM

It depends if Helexith also attacks Harmony.

#70 Horatius

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:54 PM

I don't think Helexith would be reckless enough to attack both Harmony and the Humans. They'd have their hands filled with one of them; taking on every significant force in the galaxy at once would be suicide. With the amount of careful planning and waiting, they'll probably just attack one side at the beginning and hold off on attacking the other as long as possible. Harmony wouldn't interfere unless it became clear that Helexith would win.

Speaking of Harmony, I'm not sure if the alliance will survive the war. Apart from liking peace, Sarran and Achmer have almost nothing in common. Scorp will have to verify this, but it seems like the Sarran did most of the fighting in the Xenocide War. Achmer prefer to fight indirectly, with as little life lost as possible. I pieced together some clues about the war between the Mahlok and the Achmer, and it all points to an ingenious weapon that fought the war for them (can you guess what?).

Without the Achmer, the Human civil war could never have happened. The Hub Trade Authority is what I consider their most brilliant weapon. It is completely unbiased to different nations, has a military of its own, and seems to benefit all members. But Humanity, without realizing it, is crippled by the HTA. Capitalist nations cannot wage war against one another without destroying half of their own economy, since corporations are so intertwined. By creating a "middle man" that regulates trade, capitalist nations can fight one another without the same level of economic risk as if they traded more directly. The HTA made the Ultimate War possible, weakening Achmer enemies and improving their relative strength.

This is how the Achmer wage wars: not with direct combat unless absolutely necessary. I consider them the true superpower of the galaxy. After all, no one could occupy their territories or defeat them in naval combat. Their isolationist diplomacy gives them few permanent enemies, allowing them to swoop in and wreak havoc on the weakened factions whenever they choose.

Sarran, however, are much more likely to fight Helexith. I'm predicting a four-way war with the Xarkon-Zygbari Alliance, Victory/Yavakaran Alliance, Helexith, and Sarran. The Achmer would likely provide support to the Sarran as their duty to Harmony, but they would fight as little as possible and claim whatever they took for themselves rather than a greater Harmony territory. Whether Humanity unites or not will determine its chance against the Native Powers, but I think the Achmer will gain the most and lose the least from the Ultimate War.

Then out spake brave Horatius,

The Captain of the Gate:

"To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.

And how can man die better

Than facing fearful odds,

For the ashes of his fathers,

And the temples of his gods."

 


#71 The Tamer

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:56 PM

The human nations probably have defenses up to prevent Skrakki or Mahlok or anything like that from entering human space

There already are Skrakki in human space, as seen in Warrior Born.

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#72 Florent

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 11:56 PM

Thank you for steering this topic away from being a fashion show, Yava. I'm glad that someone is still concerned about strategic factors here.

It does seem like the underdogs tend to win; but keep in mind that they don't do so by staying underdogs. The colonists beat the Redcoats because of unconventional tactics and weapons, and because the Redcoats were both pompously overconfident and relatively unsupported. Sadly enough, we lost most of the drawn-out, face-to-face battles in the Revolution because the British were simply the best. Makes one wonder if Victory will also need to get sneaky to defeat another crimson-clad army...

Still, Victory isn't as far behind Xarkon as the US was to Britain, and the numerous "wild cards" won't make things any easier. Let's just hope that Yavakaro stays committed to its alliance, and we'll both have more than a fighting chance.


Do you really think Scorp will kill off his own character? I mean, it might make a dramatic, heart-wrenching finale, but how would the story gain from that?


October 25, 1415.

The British forces were outnumbered 30 to 1.

The French lords and knights started celebrating their victory as soon as they saw the measly 10,000 English troops. When the day of battle came about, they were drunk. The English had 2,000 men at arms, and 8,000 archers. The drunken French lords never even reached the British forces.

Agincourt.

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#73 Yava

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 12:31 AM

October 25, 1415.

The British forces were outnumbered 30 to 1.

The French lords and knights started celebrating their victory as soon as they saw the measly 10,000 English troops. When the day of battle came about, they were drunk. The English had 2,000 men at arms, and 8,000 archers. The drunken French lords never even reached the British forces.

Agincourt.


That is because they were too overconfident, so they got drunk. If that happened nowadays, they would probably have been doing heroin or something. They thought they could win easily. Also, they didn't realize how many people 8000 archers can kill when it takes them 10 seconds to reload and they have 30000 targets.

#74 Golden-Star

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 03:33 AM

October 25, 1415.

The British forces were outnumbered 30 to 1.

The French lords and knights started celebrating their victory as soon as they saw the measly 10,000 English troops. When the day of battle came about, they were drunk. The English had 2,000 men at arms, and 8,000 archers. The drunken French lords never even reached the British forces.

Agincourt.


I'm not sure how that disproves the statement Lord_Capulet was making.

@Horatius: I think you are misinterpreting the Achmer. I think that while they are detached from Society and do not experience the strong emotions that Humans and Sarran do, that doesn't necessarily make them cold-blooded fiends. I think that they would fight for the Alliance, even if it was only because they know they are weaker on their own. But I think you are right in predicting a 4-way conflict rather than a two-sided one. The four sides being: Victory and Yavakaro; Xarkon, Grimm's Army and Zygbar; Helexith; and Harmony (both Achmer and Sarran).

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#75 Horatius

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 03:56 AM

I don't mean to represent them as evil fiends, just brilliant strategists. Maybe they would join the Sarran in a full-on war. I was thinking that they wouldn't be ready to commit any more forces than absolutely neccessary to the war if its only purpose was to contain Helexith, but on reflection I realize that I ignored the Sarran. The Sarran wouldn't go to war unless they were directly threatened. The Achmer would feel a threat against the Sarran as a threat against all of Harmony, including them. So they would most likely use their full military against whoever threatened them side by side with the Sarran. Based on Harmony's previous strategy, I'd expect them to fight more conservatively. They'd probably drive off enemies methodically, never advancing beyond their secured borders until they are ready to expand the entire front line. This is on a strategic scale of course, they have plenty of commandos for small-scale battles. This strategy should buy the other factions time enough to pull off daring invasions and such. Helexith, I'm predicting, will be the opposite. Lots of blitzes and ambushes most likely. I just wonder what will pull Harmony into the war to begin with...

Then out spake brave Horatius,

The Captain of the Gate:

"To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.

And how can man die better

Than facing fearful odds,

For the ashes of his fathers,

And the temples of his gods."

 


#76 Lord_Capulet

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:58 AM

@Horatius: By bringing up the Achmer, you've hit me on a weak flank. I haven't studied the Native races as much as I should have. While I concur with your analysis of the HTA, I seriously doubt that such an intelligent race would connive against the primary source of their military support when multiple enemies are at their doorstep. Sure, they wouldn't mind crippling Humanity, but I'm sure the Sarran are safe, barring any conspiracies or scandals.

I, too, wonder what will successfully goad Harmony into joining the war...and if Saber-Scorpion's encounter with the Blackwings might have any positive...or perhaps negative influence. To quote Dr. Mordin Solus: "Hmmm, tests."

@Forced Santa: Correct. At Agincourt, the British were the underdogs taking down an overconfident superpower. It was a glorious stand that could very well have been a slaughter if not for King Henry V's leadership. Now what point were you trying to make by bringing that up? It seems a bit irrelevant, as Jingle-Star has mentioned.

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#77 bpw2002

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:19 PM

Defiantly Xarkon as their tactics are superior to the victorians

You have just been... Intellectually Enlightened.  





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