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xarkon vs victory who would win?


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#41 Florent

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 09:19 PM

Oh, you shut up, ForcedSim. <_<
Et tu, Brute?

EDIT:
Oh, just saw the Enomeg armor, this time side by side with Victorian armor... :brickwall: Ok... I'm caving in... RAVEN LOOKS TOATALLY AWESOME!!!!


And Xerxes... Doesn't. ;)

*changes NR faction to Xarkon*

XARKON WOULD TOATALLY WIN IT'S SO COOL I'M WAY TOO EXITED NOW CAN'T STOP WOOOOOOO!!!!!! :lol:



Now you've got it right :P



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#42 Oufy

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:56 AM

So I have.
NOW I WILL TALK IN CAPS ABOUT HALO. SINCE I KNOW THAT XARKON IS AWESOME!

EDIT: So wait... I read earlier that Xarkon soldiers are like Nazis... That's not awesome :shock: :( Hmmm. Help me out here.

Edited by Ouflah, 11 November 2011 - 02:16 AM.

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#43 Horatius

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 08:07 AM

So wait... I read earlier that Xarkon soldiers are like Nazis... That's not awesome :shock: :( Hmmm. Help me out here.

That was just an analogy to show their loyalty and percieved supremecy, or to show their relations with Zygbar. To best understand them I would compare them to the Romans. They are both powerful Empires (in red) with extremely disciplined militaries. They value courage and sacrifice, and believe themselves the "light in the darkness" to conquer lesser civilizations and lead them to the apex of humanity (themselves of course). While I'm sure there are some soldiers similar to Nazis, the overall mentality is more Roman.

Then out spake brave Horatius,

The Captain of the Gate:

"To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.

And how can man die better

Than facing fearful odds,

For the ashes of his fathers,

And the temples of his gods."

 


#44 Oufy

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:48 AM

That was just an analogy to show their loyalty and percieved supremecy, or to show their relations with Zygbar. To best understand them I would compare them to the Romans. They are both powerful Empires (in red) with extremely disciplined militaries. They value courage and sacrifice, and believe themselves the "light in the darkness" to conquer lesser civilizations and lead them to the apex of humanity (themselves of course). While I'm sure there are some soldiers similar to Nazis, the overall mentality is more Roman.

Oh, ok! :lol:

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#45 Lord_Capulet

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:46 AM

Ok... I'm caving in... RAVEN LOOKS TOATALLY AWESOME!!!!


And Xerxes... Doesn't. ;)

*changes NR faction to Xarkon*

XARKON WOULD TOATALLY WIN IT'S SO COOL I'M WAY TOO EXITED NOW CAN'T STOP WOOOOOOO!!!!!! :lol:


:shock: Blasphemy!!! >:( Repent thy sins and cast off thy decadent red and black before it is too late! ;)



To address the armor issue, Dr. Goldy brought up some good points, but don't forget these factors:

1. Only the reckless Enomegs like Barracuda and maybe Raven would consider exposing themselves long enough to intimidate their foes; and they're all trained to be the best, so that very consideration would probably not last very long. Thus, intimdation would be a wepaon they rarely use.

2. Unless you have the firepower or reputation to back it up or are facing really cowardly opponents, intimidation will only last a few minutes, at most. Then you just become a scary target, but a target nonetheless.

3. All the advanced armor has nanomesh for camouflage, so neither red nor blue will show if the soldier doesn't want to be seen and has the equipment/armor.

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#46 Oufy

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:02 PM

:shock: Blasphemy!!! >:( Repent thy sins and cast off thy decadent red and black before it is too late! ;)



To address the armor issue, Dr. Goldy brought up some good points, but don't forget these factors:

1. Only the reckless Enomegs like Barracuda and maybe Raven would consider exposing themselves long enough to intimidate their foes; and they're all trained to be the best, so that very consideration would probably not last very long. Thus, intimdation would be a wepaon they rarely use.

2. Unless you have the firepower or reputation to back it up or are facing really cowardly opponents, intimidation will only last a few minutes, at most. Then you just become a scary target, but a target nonetheless.

3. All the advanced armor has nanomesh for camouflage, so neither red nor blue will show if the soldier doesn't want to be seen and has the equipment/armor.

We were doing a (for lack of a better word) beauty contest between the two. Xarkon vehicles and Enomegs win hands down. Although I still like the look of the lower ranking Victorian officers...

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#47 Lord_Capulet

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 06:21 AM

Heheh. :lol: Xarkon won the beauty contest! Whoop-dee-doo! Ah, the beauty of facetious sarcasm.

But yeah, I agree that Xarkon's vehicles are certainly quite attractive. After all, they're Scorp's favorites, so he'll definitely put more work into them. But yes, Victory's officers have snazzy uniforms. Glad we can agree on that.

Since you brought up Raven vs. Xerxes, let me bring up the topic of weapon choices:

Raven had a clear advantage since he had the use of two blades, versus Xerxes' one longer blade. This definitely made Xerxes less flexible, and vulnerable to binds like the one Raven used to make a fatal opening. However, I remember the days when Xerxes and TTOM were still new, and Xerxes' trademark was carrying TWO energy swords. With the flexibility of two blades and the added reach of his chosen weapons, how do you think Xerxes would have fared then?

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#48 Prattitude

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:59 AM

Well let's see...
Nova Refuge was created by Scorp. Scorp's "character" is in the Xarkonian army. Xarkon seems to be Scorp's favorite, seeing as his favorite color scheme is red and black. I'd say IF the two nations ever came to an all out war, Xarkon would win based on all of these deciding factors :rolleyes:

But honestly I doubt Scorp will ever have one or the other destroyed, and if he does there'll be a replacement nation, or more likely both nations will be destroyed, or reduced to weaker states.

I'm sure someone else thought of this... right?

But personally I think if they fought, just off of their technology and whatnot, that they'd both be destroyed or stop short of destroying each other. and then Zygbar would ally with Victory and aid in the fight against Xarkon. I think Yavakaro would probably remain neutral. So if Xarkon got Grimm's army, they might stand a chance, but if Grimm allied with Victory (which is a possibility seeing as Victory would have a HUGE advantage with Zygbar helping) they'd be decimated. Either way things happen, Grimm's army would be the deciding factor.
That's if this ever happened... which kind of sounds exciting. I hope it does... ^_^

#49 Oufy

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 08:32 PM

Heheh. :lol: Xarkon won the beauty contest! Whoop-dee-doo! Ah, the beauty of facetious sarcasm.

But yeah, I agree that Xarkon's vehicles are certainly quite attractive. After all, they're Scorp's favorites, so he'll definitely put more work into them. But yes, Victory's officers have snazzy uniforms. Glad we can agree on that.

Since you brought up Raven vs. Xerxes, let me bring up the topic of weapon choices:

Raven had a clear advantage since he had the use of two blades, versus Xerxes' one longer blade. This definitely made Xerxes less flexible, and vulnerable to binds like the one Raven used to make a fatal opening. However, I remember the days when Xerxes and TTOM were still new, and Xerxes' trademark was carrying TWO energy swords. With the flexibility of two blades and the added reach of his chosen weapons, how do you think Xerxes would have fared then?

Well, since we are saying who would win, saying, "If the odds were even..." is't the point. Xerxes didn't have two swords. So Raven won. Xarkon had the advantage. That is how you win, anyway. :rolleyes: :P

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#50 Golden-Star

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:41 PM

Well, since we are saying who would win, saying, "If the odds were even..." is't the point. Xerxes didn't have two swords. So Raven won. Xarkon had the advantage. That is how you win, anyway. :rolleyes: :P


What Ouflah is saying is completely true. After all, in a completely fair contest between two equally matched opponents, nobody would win. The deciding factor in any fight is who has the advantage. It could be a natural advantage (sharper reflexes, stronger muscles, longer limbs etc.),a technological advantage (better weapons, stronger armour, faster transport etc.) or a strategic advantage (surprise attack, more troops, better discipline etc.).

Having to take into account both the natural abilities of the individual, the technological advancements available to the soldiers and the composition of the whole force itself, added to strategic advantages and the occasional catalyst that nobody can predict, it's actually incredibly hard to determine which force would ultimately conquer the other.

I think Scorp has (knowingly or unknowingly) brought the two sides into a stalemate situation. Mars' side has more troops, about a third of those troops have a technological advantage (those from Xarkon) and they also have the strategic advantage in that Mars was expecting war for quite a while and is prepared. Radcliff's side has less troops, but a larger amount of them have a technological advantage. They do have the strategic disadvantage, but the war is taking place in the wider Nova Refuge Galaxy and Victory and Yavakaro combined likely have more off-world possessions than Xarkon (with of course the meagre additions Grimm's Army and Zygbar can give).

Overall, I feel that they're pretty matched sides and that it would take a catalyst (like the invasion of Human Space by Helexith or the Council of Harmony joining the Victorian side) to prevent the fighting or push one side into a winning position.

My suspicion is that in the end it will be less a case of who wins the Victory vs. Xarkon war, and more a case of who wins the Human vs. Helexith war Posted Image.

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#51 Oufy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 12:11 AM

What Ouflah is saying is completely true.

Wow. :shock: Did I hear that right? Thanks! I don't hear that a lot...


Anyway, I agree. They are kind of equal. It makes the story more interesting on who would win which battles...

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#52 Lord_Capulet

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:42 AM

Well, since we are saying who would win, saying, "If the odds were even..." is't the point. Xerxes didn't have two swords. So Raven won. Xarkon had the advantage. That is how you win, anyway. :rolleyes: :P


It's called a "thought experiment." I already said that Raven had the advantage, FYI, and he obviously won. I was simply asking hypothetically what you thought would happen if that advantage hadn't been so large? Stop rubbing it in my face, please.

@Golden-Star: Again, I wasn't making it a completely even fight, just asking if Xerxes might have fared better with two long swords instead of one short one. I agree with your assessment of advantages, but apparently I did not make the parameters of my little thought eperiment clear enough.

I also concur with your assessment of the outcome of the war. It took all of humanity to beat the Natives the first time in the Genocide War, but Helexith definitely won't strike until the Big Four are nice and weak. The question is: Will the nations be able to put aside their differences for the sake of survival, or will Scorp turn this into a darker story with catastrophic death tolls and no clear winner? Either way, things might look bleak for humanity in the Refuge.

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#53 Yava

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:12 AM

Victory. Just read the name! So it's not that simple, and I don't want to get into details, but give me this: Victory, with it's steel camouflage armor, looks really awesome.



If looking awesome adds +10 x Dice Roll, then Xarkon should get about +125 x Dice Roll Posted Image.

I mean, seriously, have you seen the Enomeg armour recently?

On a more serious note, armour does have a lot to play in a battle. Striking armour can become an easy target, but may also scare/demoralise enemies. Less striking armour is harder to see/shoot, but you can't scare an enemy with something they can't see.

So, which do you think would be more effective in a combat situation?



Oh, you shut up, ForcedSim. <_<
Et tu, Brute?

EDIT:
Oh, just saw the Enomeg armor, this time side by side with Victorian armor... :brickwall: Ok... I'm caving in... RAVEN LOOKS TOATALLY AWESOME!!!!


And Xerxes... Doesn't. ;)

*changes NR faction to Xarkon*

XARKON WOULD TOATALLY WIN IT'S SO COOL I'M WAY TOO EXITED NOW CAN'T STOP WOOOOOOO!!!!!! :lol:

You can't judge a book off it's cover. You should know that. If the outcome of a war was based on the factions' appearances everything would be different. The Redcoats would have won the Revolutionary War, The Empire would not have been defeated time and time again. The Axis would have conquered the world. Well, you see where I'm going here. If history has taught me anything, it's that the underdog wins in the longrun. However, that isn't the case in Nova Refuge. All the factions in Nova Refuge are pretty evenly matched. Xarkon and Victory have equal military power. The Helexith Coalition has a huuuuge army of imbeciles. Yavakaro has high-tech equipment. Grimms Army and Zygbar are backstabbing. There is no sure way to tell who will win. My only guess now is that Saber-Scorpion will die in the end. Just being realistic.

#54 Lord_Capulet

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 11:05 AM

Thank you for steering this topic away from being a fashion show, Yava. I'm glad that someone is still concerned about strategic factors here.

It does seem like the underdogs tend to win; but keep in mind that they don't do so by staying underdogs. The colonists beat the Redcoats because of unconventional tactics and weapons, and because the Redcoats were both pompously overconfident and relatively unsupported. Sadly enough, we lost most of the drawn-out, face-to-face battles in the Revolution because the British were simply the best. Makes one wonder if Victory will also need to get sneaky to defeat another crimson-clad army...

Still, Victory isn't as far behind Xarkon as the US was to Britain, and the numerous "wild cards" won't make things any easier. Let's just hope that Yavakaro stays committed to its alliance, and we'll both have more than a fighting chance.


Do you really think Scorp will kill off his own character? I mean, it might make a dramatic, heart-wrenching finale, but how would the story gain from that?

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#55 Yava

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 08:43 PM

Do you really think Scorp will kill off his own character? I mean, it might make a dramatic, heart-wrenching finale, but how would the story gain from that?


Exactly, finally. And don't think I'm talking about being killed by a lucky shot or anything wimpy like that, I mean dying heroically like Optimus in Revenge of the Fallen.B)

#56 Golden-Star

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 01:47 AM

Exactly, finally. And don't think I'm talking about being killed by a lucky shot or anything wimpy like that, I mean dying heroically like Optimus in Revenge of the Fallen.B)


I don't know, Scorp is probably going to leave it a mystery at the end whether Scorp is dead or not and let the readers decide what they think. I mean, I don't think he's ever released an official statement about whether *spoiler* Dark-Dragon is dead or not *spoiler*.

But the main point of this topic is to discuss the overall result of the war, and while Scorp's life or death may have an affect on that it is an extremely unlikely occurrence.

@Lord_Capulet: You're right, underdogs don't win and stay underdogs. To defeat the Emperor, Luke had to first confront him and Vader. In order to win WWII, Britain needed Russia and America fighting against the Germans as well. I don't know anything much about the American War of Independence, but I do know that the Americans were outmatched by the British, and it was only the fact that reinforcements had to be shipped across the Atlantic Ocean that prevented us from winning. The key point here is that the underdog has to have that extra push, usually their enemies arrogance working against them, to fight back and win.

But the war can't really be seen as a Luke vs. Vader or a British vs. Colonial Americans thing. It's more of a Cold War 'war of giants' type thing. Both sides are fairly evenly matched, and the playing field is likely to get rough and ready. Except there's the Helexith there like an Alien invasion force threatening to destroy Human-kind even as it destroys itself.

So yeah, it'll take a catalyst to brake the stalemate, or else the longest faction to endure the storm wins Posted Image.

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#57 Lord_Capulet

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:32 AM

@Lord_Capulet: You're right, underdogs don't win and stay underdogs. To defeat the Emperor, Luke had to first confront him and Vader. In order to win WWII, Britain needed Russia and America fighting against the Germans as well. I don't know anything much about the American War of Independence, but I do know that the Americans were outmatched by the British, and it was only the fact that reinforcements had to be shipped across the Atlantic Ocean that prevented us from winning. The key point here is that the underdog has to have that extra push, usually their enemies arrogance working against them, to fight back and win.

But the war can't really be seen as a Luke vs. Vader or a British vs. Colonial Americans thing. It's more of a Cold War 'war of giants' type thing. Both sides are fairly evenly matched, and the playing field is likely to get rough and ready. Except there's the Helexith there like an Alien invasion force threatening to destroy Human-kind even as it destroys itself.

So yeah, it'll take a catalyst to brake the stalemate, or else the longest faction to endure the storm wins Posted Image.

You are correct in that assessment, Jingle-Star. That's exactly what I meant by "relatively unsupported." I've heard accounts of how the Revolutionary War was unpopular back in England, but we're now getting off the subject.

I like how you compared this to the Cold War, that's actually a better analogy than the Revolutionary War. Well played!

Do you think Helexith will be enough of a catalyst tip the scales, or that they will easily stand against all the weakened human nations combined? And what of Harmony? They're not fond of humans, but I'm sure they won't appreciate Helexith seizing control. I wonder if Scorp will have Harmony work something out with the humans...Yavakaro has a Sarran population, doesn't it?

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#58 Golden-Star

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:49 PM

Do you think Helexith will be enough of a catalyst tip the scales, or that they will easily stand against all the weakened human nations combined? And what of Harmony? They're not fond of humans, but I'm sure they won't appreciate Helexith seizing control. I wonder if Scorp will have Harmony work something out with the humans...Yavakaro has a Sarran population, doesn't it?


I don't think Scorp has ever given us any precise numbers to do with the size of the Helexith Empire, but I reckon that if the entire Helexith force attacked Human space then even all four major factions working together wouldn't be able to stop them. Considering that, the only hope for Humans is that the Helexith don't send their entire force to attack Human space. From the epilogue of Warrior Born, the Helexith seem quite arrogant about their power. This might lead them to send a smaller force than usual that all four Human nations might be able to defeat.

Still, that would require all four of the nations to be working together and be at full strength. I reckon that by the time the Helexith invasion force arrives, the Human factions would have wiped themselves down to at least 2/3 of their original power. In that case, the only thing that would save Humankind from even a small Helexith force would be the intervention of Harmony.

You're right in saying that Yavakaro has an unusually large Sarran population. In fact, there's enough Sarran in Yavakaro to allow one of the Six to be a Sarran. So I think if Humanity was in peril that Harmony would at least send some help. And they would almost definitely send help if it was Helexith that was causing the trouble.

So yeah, I think Helexith is more than enough of a catalyst to tip the balance of the Xarkon vs. Victory war. And Harmony is another catalyst that may intervene in the war if Helexith invades, or even intervene before Helexith invades. Harmony may even side with Victory and Yavakaro without any idea that Helexith is about to come down and kick all of their asses. But there's one catalyst I don't think we've considered; Skrakki! What kind of an impact would Skrakki have on a Victory vs. Xarkon war (or even a Xarkon vs. Victory vs. Helexith vs. Harmony war)?

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#59 master18

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:43 AM

I think that if the Skrakki were to enter the equation, probably all oof the armies would focus on eradicating them, and then would turn back to their original war. However, since the Helexith have a lot more experience fighting the Skrakki, they would probably have more soldiers left, and then they woould destroy humanity.

What a happy thought. ^_^
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#60 Yava

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:57 AM

The Skrakki are a hive mind who have no interest in humans, like the Tyranids in Warhammer 40k. Don't think about comparing them to the Flood, because they are 100% different. The Skrakki have one objective: eat. They either eat, build, or squish out babies. They only fight/eat someone because they are A) looking for food or B) you are in their territory.




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