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Walkers vs Tanks


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#41 The unknown

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 09:47 AM

I wonder why everybody pro-tank says that the tank is faster and the walker is slower. We are talking about NOVA REFUGE here, what I know, Scorp based his walkers around the same kind as Mechwarrior/assault. Have you seen those walkers ? Really fast, agility and durability. Scorp did the walkers this way because he likes them this way, and are a big part of his universe.

If you really want good tanks and walkers, take 2 tanks and a walker, the tanks cover the lower part, while the walker shots the enemies at long range before they attack the tanks. It's way better.

#42 DS9

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 04:09 AM

QUOTE (Rabid Chaos @ Sep 2 2008, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let me fix your lineup of pros and cons.
Tanks:
+Faster on level terrain, especially roads
+Less maintenance intensive
+Doesn't have to be so advanced or expensive
+Sturdy drive
+Stable firing platform
+can be made heavier
+less pressure on ground
+/-Low to the ground
-Not so good with jagged terrain
-Not so good at going around obstacles (over counts as around, and mostly is faster)
-Not so good trying to equip with rockets/hover. Imagine a brick with a rocket on the bottom.

Walkers:
Pretty much reverse the above. I'm lazy, so I'm not going to type it out unless I get more energy.
Some others will think of more +s for the walkers.

Note about some wrong points you made:
-Either can turn their weapons around in very little time.
-Eithers' weapon loadouts can be changed without changing the hull / legs.
-Anything can be engineer/medical: look at choppers.
-Either can be designed for 1-many people: tankettes.
-walkers are worse with heavy weapons: more of a recoil issue
-land bound- OF COURSE they'll always have legs: that's why they're walkers.
-what's the difference between mecha and walkers? and walkers CAN fly-to a limited extent.
-hardsuits: aren't they just mini-walkers? just use a HAZMAT suit for toxic environs. Or bring in a full-blown walker.


Hmm, i'm not happy with you saying mecha and walkers are the same. Their basic concepts might be the same but infact the mecha is faster and its body can turn just above the legs. The walker is actually the only one that can have mroe then 2 legs, i have never seen a mecha have that wink.gif Then about walkers can fly for limited time, have proof? because i dont have ever seen one that actually did that wink.gif It's like saying cats can fly as good as birds, just wont happen. Hardsuits are actually nothing more then a high-tech heavy armoured suit, so that doesnt count as mecha nor walker. Although it does look like that catagory. A hardsuit can walk almost everywhere where plain soldiers can go. I don't see a full-blown walker or mecha doing that trick wink.gif
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#43 Moonlight

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 02:01 PM

Mecha suck because they're generally made to look like humans. AKA, they have HEADS, why? Unless it would carry the sensory package or the pilot itself (Both would be INCREDIBLY idiotic) there's absolutely no point? Hands are idiotic because that just means your mecha can be disarmed and how would they be faster? They'd be SLOWER, because they'd, again, be designed for some reason, as a human. Why? Balancing it's legs would be a complete bust. Reverse jointed mechs remove this problem as they encourage balance. A hardsuit is good, granted, but it's best as infantry heavy support or spatial operations, but it's hardly a better weapons platform then a walker.

Again, mecha and walkers are different. The bottom-line? Walker > Mecha. No 'mecha' design is ever practical.

And walkers can fly. Ever played Mechwarrior before? Because if you haven't, you're simply deprived. The walkers that inspired Scorp's? Yeah, they've got jumpjets, and so do Scorp's.

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#44 Kampfer

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 03:11 PM

QUOTE (Moonlight @ Sep 10 2008, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mecha suck because they're generally made to look like humans. AKA, they have HEADS, why? Unless it would carry the sensory package or the pilot itself (Both would be INCREDIBLY idiotic) there's absolutely no point? Hands are idiotic because that just means your mecha can be disarmed and how would they be faster? They'd be SLOWER, because they'd, again, be designed for some reason, as a human. Why? Balancing it's legs would be a complete bust. Reverse jointed mechs remove this problem as they encourage balance. A hardsuit is good, granted, but it's best as infantry heavy support or spatial operations, but it's hardly a better weapons platform then a walker.

Again, mecha and walkers are different. The bottom-line? Walker > Mecha. No 'mecha' design is ever practical.

And walkers can fly. Ever played Mechwarrior before? Because if you haven't, you're simply deprived. The walkers that inspired Scorp's? Yeah, they've got jumpjets, and so do Scorp's.


I would argue against you but i just can't be bothered, go read my other post if you can understand them.

Although I will say this, Ther reason mecha are faster is because there jumpjet system (if you can call it that) is alot more complicated and allow the machine to boost along the ground. The system usually run's straight off the generator so it can be activated for alot longer time. this can in effect double at least the machine's over all speed.

And really not machine like what is being talked about here is practical, Walker or mecha.

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#45 Goldy

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Posted 10 September 2008 - 07:42 AM

Of mentioning is that Walkers can cross deeper rivers than tanks. Well, the pressure on the feet may sink them into the bed but who knows.

#46 Socks

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Posted 10 September 2008 - 10:27 AM

QUOTE (DS9 @ Sep 2 2008, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hmm, i'm not happy with you saying mecha and walkers are the same. Their basic concepts might be the same but infact the mecha is faster and its body can turn just above the legs. The walker is actually the only one that can have mroe then 2 legs, i have never seen a mecha have that wink.gif Then about walkers can fly for limited time, have proof? because i dont have ever seen one that actually did that wink.gif It's like saying cats can fly as good as birds, just wont happen. Hardsuits are actually nothing more then a high-tech heavy armoured suit, so that doesnt count as mecha nor walker. Although it does look like that catagory. A hardsuit can walk almost everywhere where plain soldiers can go. I don't see a full-blown walker or mecha doing that trick wink.gif


We are NOT talking about the abominations called "mecha".

QUOTE (Kampfer @ Sep 10 2008, 06:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would argue against you but i just can't be bothered, go read my other post if you can understand them.

Although I will say this, Ther reason mecha are faster is because there jumpjet system (if you can call it that) is alot more complicated and allow the machine to boost along the ground. The system usually run's straight off the generator so it can be activated for alot longer time. this can in effect double at least the machine's over all speed.

And really not machine like what is being talked about here is practical, Walker or mecha.


Oh, really? So, you pointed out how the mecha are faster. What about all of Moonlight's other points? Your previous post doesn't do anything.

#47 Kampfer

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Posted 10 September 2008 - 05:39 PM

QUOTE
Oh, really? So, you pointed out how the mecha are faster. What about all of Moonlight's other points? Your previous post doesn't do anything.


I have 5 other post in this topic, I'm pretty sure I've covered most of his point's in them some where.

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#48 Dr. Dood von Doodstormer

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 04:24 AM

I suppose I'll fling myself into the line of fire.
And instead of comparing real tanks with mechwarrior walkers, I'm going to use two Nova Refuge examples, since this discussion IS in the Nova Refuge section.

Tank: Thrym Siege Tank
Walker: Manegarm

Both:
Long range bombardment capability
Slow moving
Heavy

Thrym (advantages):
-Powerful armor
-Faster to aim (let's face it, a rotating turret is faster than a walker turning around/rotating the upper torso)
-Anti-air weaponry

Thrym (disadvantages)
-Is extremely wide, probably has a disadvantage in closed areas (cities, forests, etc.)
-Slow turning
-Most of the weaponry is designed for long to medium range (except for those gatling cannons, but the position of the tracks obscures their aim, and the rear machine guns aren't exactly that mobile)

Manegarm (advantages):
-Jump jets/flight
-High rate of fire for most weapons
-Taller, probably has a better line of sight

Manegarm (disadvantages):
-No specific anti-air weaponry (Sure, you can point those cannons and plasma gun at it, but what'll that do against a -fast-moving fighter?)
-Very large, cityscapes and other closed areas are probably troublesome.

I'll add some other stuff later, that's just what came to mind at the moment.

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#49 Rabid Chaos

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 08:34 AM

Yay, someone thought of a logical way of arguing! But then, I think we've mostly either became entrenched in the side of our choice or agreed that it would take live testing instead of brainstorming for anything conclusive. I think we're are starting to talk in circles now.

And one thing about hands: For a general purpose vehicle, they might come in useful. For example, clearing a path of wreckage. Or carrying another vehicle to safety. I am NOT arguing in favor of using hands to operate weaponry.
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#50 Worm_that_Walks

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 10:22 AM

I'm afraid tanks win. Walkers can be cool, but when it comes down to it, Leman Russ and Chaos Vindicators own the vehicle world.

Edited by Worm_That_Walks, 12 September 2008 - 10:40 AM.


#51 Silent-Sigfig

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 10:30 AM

While most of you may flame me for it, i think "mecha" with hands are awesome. notheng says epic like a 30-foot-high walker grabbing a steel pole and hurling it, javelin style, strait into an enemy mech's cockpit.

Anyway, It would take live testing, athogh I think that in real-life, tanks would be more useful, but in scorp's world and view, walkers would be better, as they're basiccly big, heavy humans.

#52 flounder

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 12:57 PM

>
Aborted fetus. That is all.

#53 Silent-Sigfig

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 08:59 AM

that first pic was awesome.

#54 Socks

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 03:22 AM

QUOTE (Silent-Sigfig @ Sep 13 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In my opinion that first pic was awesome.


Fixed.

For example, in my opinion, the mech just looks stupid. Nevermind, the whole picture looks stupid.

: /

Edited by Perspective, 14 September 2008 - 03:23 AM.


#55 Silent-Sigfig

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 04:11 AM

But it can pick up stuff and use it as makeshift weapons. Like rocks, trees, and alligators(brikwars battle I had. All fear alligator sword)!

#56 Socks

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 08:36 AM

You forgot to mention that if they are shot in their hands they are useless. If they are shot in the shoulders and the wiring is damaged, they are useless. Same thing for any point a long the arm.

EDIT: wtf does everyone keep using that same old argument? It's not like it makes sense if you spam it all the time.*

*You meaning advocates of anime mecha/humanoid mecha

Edited by Perspective, 14 September 2008 - 08:37 AM.


#57 Kampfer

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE (Perspective @ Sep 15 2008, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You forgot to mention that if they are shot in their hands they are useless. If they are shot in the shoulders and the wiring is damaged, they are useless. Same thing for any point a long the arm.

EDIT: wtf does everyone keep using that same old argument? It's not like it makes sense if you spam it all the time.*

*You meaning advocates of anime mecha/humanoid mecha



Look at the pic that scorp posted, that could just as easily have on of it's arm's blown off. any joint or limb is a weak point.

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#58 Socks

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 04:47 AM

You missed my point completely.

#59 Orion

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 08:34 AM

Tanks and Walkers represent two different roles.
Tanks seem to do more of the shooting and confines space battles like cities.

Walkers seem to be more mid-long range reconnaissance simply because their more versatile.

If it was 1v1, walker vs tank, I would have to give it to the walker because it has the ability to go places the tank cant and if
it had some form of homing missiles.

Other than 1v1s I would give it to the tanks.

#60 DS9

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 09:03 PM

QUOTE (Moonlight @ Sep 10 2008, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mecha suck because they're generally made to look like humans. AKA, they have HEADS, why? Unless it would carry the sensory package or the pilot itself (Both would be INCREDIBLY idiotic) there's absolutely no point? Hands are idiotic because that just means your mecha can be disarmed and how would they be faster? They'd be SLOWER, because they'd, again, be designed for some reason, as a human. Why? Balancing it's legs would be a complete bust. Reverse jointed mechs remove this problem as they encourage balance. A hardsuit is good, granted, but it's best as infantry heavy support or spatial operations, but it's hardly a better weapons platform then a walker.

Again, mecha and walkers are different. The bottom-line? Walker > Mecha. No 'mecha' design is ever practical.

And walkers can fly. Ever played Mechwarrior before? Because if you haven't, you're simply deprived. The walkers that inspired Scorp's? Yeah, they've got jumpjets, and so do Scorp's.


In a way every vehicle has a "head", the tank has its turret (well... in most cases) but also the driver position.... without that the tank can not move. You got to see where you are going to else you will be blind! This also counts for mech's, walkers, and other vehicles. Without a "head", or command position AKA cockpit, you can not use the vehicle. so that's utter nonsense. Even a droid has a "head" in some way, it's brain. Without it it simply wont move! Talking about balance, well a tank is balanced without even adding joints or legs or what ever. So the tank wins that without any debate possible. A hardsuit isn't better then a walker, never claimed that part. I said it's better in streets and small areas like corridors. Since a walker or mech can not enter that because of it's size. So in cities for example it might be smart to use a hardsuit instead of a mech or walkers.

Yes I played Mechwarrior games, It's a game from my time (ugh I'm getting old). Walkers can not fly, mecha's (as in the game) can for short periods of time. It aint even real flying either but hopping.

QUOTE (GoldenElite0 @ Sep 10 2008, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of mentioning is that Walkers can cross deeper rivers than tanks. Well, the pressure on the feet may sink them into the bed but who knows.


Hovertanks can cross even oceans if they really have to, so kinda useless to mention the depth of rivers since hover units don't work like that tongue.gif

QUOTE (Kampfer @ Sep 15 2008, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Look at the pic that scorp posted, that could just as easily have on of it's arm's blown off. any joint or limb is a weak point.


Bingo! On the other side... a Turret can be shot off aswell, leaving the tank completely without any weapons at all.... So this is for both not a good thing. The tank will usually be totaled even when the turret is shot off as well.

QUOTE (Orion @ Sep 16 2008, 12:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Tanks and Walkers represent two different roles.
Tanks seem to do more of the shooting and confines space battles like cities.

Walkers seem to be more mid-long range reconnaissance simply because their more versatile.

If it was 1v1, walker vs tank, I would have to give it to the walker because it has the ability to go places the tank cant and if
it had some form of homing missiles.

Other than 1v1s I would give it to the tanks.


Excuse me??? A tank can get a hover chassis and "hop", which makes the tank ideal to even cross large lakes and or small seas if needed. Even in WW2 tanks could "swim". Not entirely true for those tanks, because the Sherman DD tanks would actually drive on the bottom of the sea while a "skirt" like device was keeping the water out of the engine compartment and kept the crew from drowning. Now the tanks really can float and "swim" which leaves the walkers behind on that subject. Both do have different roles.


BTW, to everyone.... why are real life tanks compaired to anime and movie walkers?????? Sounds like bull to me!!!! Everyone knows that tanks/walkers or what ever can do way more in movies, games, anime etc then in real life! You simply can not compair those!!!
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