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#1961 Princess Floweraven

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 02:31 PM

> misunderstood you sorry

 

So here's a different comment because I can't speak to KotoR, having never finished either.

 

This is a main saga story undermining the most famous trilogy of all time. This is unacceptable.


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#1962 Darknoon

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 02:34 PM

> misunderstood you sorry

 

So here's a different comment because I can't speak to KotoR, having never finished either.

 

This is a main saga story undermining the most famous trilogy of all time. This is unacceptable.

 

Lots of people apparently said the same thing after TESB, as the tone was so much darker and more bizarre compared to ANH, and because they didn't like how miserably all the heroes suffered. Sounds familiar?

 

I guarantee TLJ will last the test of time and be venerated. All my non-SW fanatic friends love this - my girlfriend watched 4-8 with me these last few months, and this was her favourite. That's because it's an objectively well-made piece of entertainment and sequel, and that matters a lot more than a small subset of fans with very specific and often unhelpful ideas of what the largest entertainment franchise of all time should look like.
 


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#1963 Princess Floweraven

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 02:40 PM

"Objectively."

 

You literally can't say that given the huge backlash. You can't. I personally thought it was a very bad film regardless of how I felt the franchise should go.

 

 

EDIT: I'm just gonna leave this discussion. This movie broke me. I walked out of that theater devastated and I am literally depressed after seeing it. I hated it so much. Talking about it will only hurt more.


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#1964 Sephsekla

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 03:05 PM

Better movie than ROTJ, better movie than Force Awakens.

It really saddens me that you guys can't have the experience that we did watching it, I loved it from start to finish and finally found Luke to be a three dimensional character.
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#1965 Darknoon

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 03:14 PM

"Objectively."

 

You literally can't say that given the huge backlash. You can't. I personally thought it was a very bad film regardless of how I felt the franchise should go.

 

 

EDIT: I'm just gonna leave this discussion. This movie broke me. I walked out of that theater devastated and I am literally depressed after seeing it. I hated it so much. Talking about it will only hurt more.

 

I'm genuinely very sorry you feel that way. It does suck having your expectations shattered, but I hope you can come back to the film at a later date when you perhaps have a changed perspective/interact with entertainment in a different way and can appreciate the quality of the film. If not, as I said you'll always have the OT - I do exactly what Scorp does and cut the Alien films off with the end of Aliens in my mind (but I equally can appreciate aspects of Alien 3 and don't resent its existence).

 

A word on objectivity: I do understand your point, and I use the term a little more loosely than some. Nevertheless, you could analyse the pacing, cinematography, editing etc. of this film in depth and it would score highly. Vice-versa, do the same for the prequels and they fall woefully short. The criticisms of the film I see rarely engage with these more objective measures of quality, and are more about what Star Wars should be rather than what a good film should be. "This film is bad because I don't like seeing Luke having lost" is a different level of criticism to tearing apart the prequels for how lazy the exposition-dump dialogue is compared to how crisp and witty it is here.

 

It's fair enough if you disagree with that assessment, but there is a lot of critical weight to back this up from people looking at this from a critical rather than emotional perspective. That's also not to say that something having objective quality makes you wrong for disliking something. I am just saying, (and I will preface this with imo) the evidence is that this film is resonating well outside of less devoted audiences because it is structured, paced, written, presented etc. in a way that engages with how we derive entertainment from cinema. I'll pass on a more detailed quantitative analysis but, outside of RT and Metacritic (which are basically venues for review-bombing nowadays) the film trends well.


Edited by Darknoon, 19 December 2017 - 03:16 PM.

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#1966 Bilbo_Baggins

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 03:28 PM

It's out baby.

 



#1967 Darknoon

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 03:46 PM

I mean whilst I do like RLM's movie criticism, the sum of their thoughts on Blade Runner was 'boring', and I didn't rate their TFA review much, So YMMV


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#1968 broons

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 08:12 PM

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Y'all are pretty whiny about a bunch if fictional characters.

My biggest complaint about the movie was it was really long but not enough happened.

Also Luke was portrayed perfectly. How can anyone think not? I just don't get it. Where are these misconceptions about Luke coming from? Ruined your favorite character? Give me a break, they wrote Luke better than any other character.

If we're really beating up an annoying character let's talk about how Rose's arc gave extremely little to the plot. Hopefully she comes back as a better, more fleshed out character in 9.

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#1969 Ocelot

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 10:42 PM

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I can understand not liking the situations the characters were put in, but, yeah, I can't agree with any complaints about their characterisation. Han was written so well in The Force Awakens it was like they'd shocked grumpy old Harrison Ford out of his decades-long slump of phoning in acting jobs for paycheques and made him remember what it was like to be a movie star again. And Luke is absolutely wonderful in this movie. No he's not happily married Jedi Master Luke with a neat beard and dozens of adoring apprentices, but he's so perfectly Luke-y all the same.

 

I think there's a preeeeetty big gulf between what Alien 3 did with Hicks and Mostly and what these movies do with Luke and Han. I don't know how you could work them into the same sentence, really. Is it really so unbelievable that a scoundrel and a princess who fell in love during wartime didn't live happily ever after to the end of their days? I mean, it's a thirty year time skip we're talking about; it seems like they made a pretty good go of it for like twenty of those years, and then their son went bad and neither of them really knew what to do about it. Han dies having acted like a huge hero all throughout the movie, and having left Rey, Finn and Kylo with warm and fuzzy father figure life lessons they'll never forget (no matter how hard they try, in Kylo's case). Considering Harrison Ford has been wanting Han killed off since Return of the Jedi and probably only agreed to be part of TFA if they did it for real, I think it's probably the best sendoff for the character we were ever going to get.

 

Spoiler

 

I don't like what JJ and Rian have done with the old characters because it's dark or bold or whatevs; I like it because it's just good. They didn't write them as static legends who've been riding the success of what they pulled off in the Original Trilogy all their lives, they gave them interesting stories that would keep them growing as characters. I wouldn't have wanted to see Han or Luke promoted to the Obi Wan role from the OT, for example, where they basically exist only as plot devices to deliver exposition because they already have their lives worked out, y'know? Rey thinks she's going to see a wise old Jedi who'll tell her what she needs to do, but instead she finds our old buddy Luke, and Luke has some of the answers but not all of'em because he's still trying to work them out himself. 

 

I really don't get the 'undermining the Original Trilogy' angle, to be honest. Was the galaxy just supposed to be a nice place forever and ever after the Emperor got thrown down a shaft? I get that Star Wars doesn't need to be Game of Thrones, but it doesn't need to be fairy tales, either. I mean, in the original EU the Empire kept going strong for years after they blew up the second Death Star, and they cloned the Emperor like a dozen times and made a bunch more planet-killing super weapons; at least in the Disney-verse it seems like things were pretty good for about twenty years post-RotJ.

 

In conclusion, here's a picture of everyone's new favourite character:

 

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Also this:

 

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#1970 Darknoon

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 01:37 AM

Yeh, Mark Hammill and Rian nailed it with Luke. He felt far much more like a living, real extension of the character we knew years ago than some of the boring, oh-so-wise interpretations from the EU.
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#1971 Florent

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 02:02 PM

By shedding the baggage of previous films across all 8 previous Star Wars movies, Rian showed us what Star Wars is. It's more than lightsabers, Jedi, the Force, callbacks to previous films, Luke Han and Leia, Anakin, Darth Vader... By taking all that and throwing it over his shoulders he's saying "This universe, this story, is more than those things." That's what was so beautiful to me about TLJ. Not dispassionately sitting back and enjoying the technical aspects of directing/acting/screenwriting/cinematography. It's Star Wars stripped of everything you thought you cared about, leaving only the good stuff.

 

In a sense it's the opposite of Rogue One. A movie that exists solely to pointlessly fill in backstory and show off cool space battles. There's no heart, no message, just pure action and destruction with Death Stars and X wings... and it's awful. It's everything that a Star Wars movie is supposed to *look* like, but has nothing of what makes Star Wars feel like. TLJ is the opposite. It disregards all of the flashy surface-level elements, and presents the heart of what Star Wars is to me and a lot of other people too, apparently.


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#1972 broons

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:07 PM

I kinda feel like these people complaining about Luke's role and what happened would have complained about Obi Wan dying in ANH if the prequels had been the first movies released.

Luke has a very similar role in that aspect - he's there to bridge the gap between the previous trilogy of characters and the current. The passing of the torch if you will. Sure, Luke passes the torch to a character who isn't a Skywalker, but you know what? The Skywalkers had six movies. They aren't the only family in the galaxy oh AND there's still a Skywalker/Solo as a main character he just happens to not be a jerk.

I dunno guys I just feel like the reaction to this movie as "ruining Star Wars" is pretty dumb.

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#1973 Florent

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 05:37 PM

Also jus saying this is probably the least "made by committee" movie of the franchise for ~30 years. This was really an auteur film that is more a Rian Johnson project than even a Star Wars movie tbh.

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#1974 God-Emperor Thrawnie

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 06:32 PM

This was really an auteur film that is more a Rian Johnson project than even a Star Wars movie tbh.

 

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#1975 Spark

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:09 PM

Wait, that was a bad thing?


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#1976 Ocelot

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:21 PM

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In a sense it's the opposite of Rogue One. A movie that exists solely to pointlessly fill in backstory and show off cool space battles. There's no heart, no message, just pure action and destruction with Death Stars and X wings... and it's awful. It's everything that a Star Wars movie is supposed to *look* like, but has nothing of what makes Star Wars feel like. TLJ is the opposite. It disregards all of the flashy surface-level elements, and presents the heart of what Star Wars is to me and a lot of other people too, apparently.

 

Rogue One is the Wookieepedia editor's Star Wars movie. It doesn't have any characters and you already know the whole story before you even start watching, so you can concentrate on the really important stuff: which model of AT-AT they were using and how cool it was when all the X-Wings went pew pew and the TIE Fighters went "RRRAAAAWWRR" and then Darth Vader killed a bunch of guys with his lightsabre oh my God best Star Wars movie ever.

 

But, I mean, some people are all about that logistical plot stuff when they watch movies, and I can understand why VII and VIII aren't doing it for them. Rogue One is a movie about a goal that needs to be accomplished, and the exact steps a bunch of people take in order to do just that, with the barest minimum of reluctant character development along the way when they can be bothered. And some people are super into that kind of thing! Meanwhile, TFA and TLJ are more or less entirely character development, with the plot relegated to background noise. In TFA they just copied the broad strokes of A New Hope, and in TLJ they spend a few minutes setting up a ticking clock that basically boils down to some technobabble you aren't supposed to understand anyway.

 

I may have mentioned once or twice that I absolutely adore The Force Awakens, and at first I was really taken aback by all the complaints. I obviously noticed the things it shares with A New Hope when I was watching it, but... I just didn't care, I suppose. Still don't. That movie is such a wonderfully snappy explosion of pure fun and adventure and space emotions, and I just love it so much. But I can also see that if you aren't interested in character stuff and you're just waiting for the next thing to happen, you're probably not going to have the best time with that movie. Like, my favourite scene in TFA is Rey fighting Kylo off when he's trying to reach into her mind, but if you're just taking that scene at face value and you aren't interested in what it means for each character, it's literally just those two grimacing at eachother for a really uncomfortably long time :P

 

Likewise, with The Last Jedi...

 

Spoiler

 

So, I don't want to be super-condescending here and tell people how to enjoy movies. It's certainly not a bad thing when a movie has a good plot you can really get into. Buuuuut, I don't think I've ever really liked a movie on plot alone (Inception, maybe?), and I always need some of that good, rich character-driven meat on the bone.

 

(I also don't want to be a huge snob and act like I don't like a good stupid action movie, because I love stupid action movies. I think well-executed action is its own reward and I will happily throw everything I've just said out the window if a movie's action scenes are good enough. But, ironically, I am a huge snob when it comes to action movies and you have to really knock it out of the park to impress me these days. Rogue One's action is fine, I guess, but not enough to really get my potato boiling. Luckily The Last Jedi has that good character business and some incredible action scenes. Boy what a great movie.)



#1977 Darknoon

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 02:30 PM

^perfect description of rogue one. Make it a random WW2 movie, amd it'd score as highly as Fury lol. Foreseeable plot, dull characters, predictable, visually uninspiring, intellectually and emotionally bereft. A solid 5/10 that is venerated by nerds because Darth Vader kills some people. Jooooooke
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#1978 Ocelot

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:14 AM

Oh no, the thread title edits are getting mean, time to bust out the emergency common ground memes:

 

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Oh no wait I forgot that us millennials love the Prequels now, just like we love avocados and never owning property! Millenniaaaaaaals!



#1979 Sephsekla

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:25 AM

I found something that should help particularly angry Last Jedi haters calm down.

Spoiler

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#1980 Saber-Scorpion

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:12 AM

The edit wars are funny, but try to keep the topic title PG-rated, guys. :P


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