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#41 Spark

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 07:20 PM

It also helps if you see it from my POV: I tend to get the story finished, then utterly forget about it in favor of crafting my own within the limitations of what I can do with the setting. At which point I begin 'acting' it out, and this could go on for months at a time until I got bored or I 'ended' it. I did that with FO3 and NV. Never did it with Skyrim though. TES's overall lore is weaker than the fabled 'Fallout Bible'.

 

[shamelesshistory]I did a similar thing with Halo back during 3/Reach days. It was roughly the same concept, except in this case, the fruit of those efforts was documented, as a few people can remember.  My writing wasn't the best, but I still think the 2nd of my Halo comics (P7) was a really good story, and I'm sad I never got to tell it properly.[/shamelesshistory]

 

Also, another thing me and a friend came to a conclusion about: Fallout is one of the rare series where not only does it revel in black comedy, it's practically a core concept of the IP. This is an area that Fallout 3 just did not measure up to in comparison to 1/2/NV. It was there, but it was the weakest of the 4. At least as far as my knowledge, Fallout and Portal stand alone in this department. Feel free to educate my uncultured mind.


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#42 Herbert

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 07:34 PM

The sad fact is that Skyrim caused my crusty, grinchy heart to shrink three sizes that day with it's gameplay, and my excitement at a Bethesda released tends to be overshadowed by my cynicism at what they're going to do to 'casualize' it, for lack of a better word.

I can't even say I rightfully hate F3, the number of hours I've put in speak for themselves, but it's fairly clear that their writers have no idea at what they're doing.

For it's gigantic gaping flaws, Fallout 3 was compelling, in a way that Skyrim failed to be. 

A large part of this was the terrible RPG systems I think. you couldn't reasonably play the game without a very heavy emphasis on weapon skills, and Magic was severely nerfed to give shouts a reason to exist, meaning you pretty much had to tote around a chunk of steel if you didn't want every fight to be even more boring. 


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#43 Ryoma

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 08:49 PM

Before I begin, let me say one thing. Spark, your enjoyment of Fallout 3 should, IN NO WAY, be hindered or made meaningless by Thrawnie, myself, Richard, or anyone else's lack of enjoyment. You found a game you loved, congratulations. I am sincerely jealous of you. I love video games, and I love finding ones that hit me in the right way. Fallout 3 did that for you. Be proud of it. It did not for me. You may be a minority online, or feel that way right now. Who cares? You had more fun than we did. No matter how you look at that, you win. Period.

 

With that said, I've been burned far too often by the so-called Triple-A gaming market, and many others who are cynics have been the same way. This same thing cropped up back when Star Wars Battlefront was announced. The game, factually, is planned to have less features than a previous game. It has Pre-order DLC. If past experiences are anything to go by, it will probably have a terrible launch. And gamers got called elitists because they wanted a sequel to have more, or at least, a similar amount of content to the previous game. I don't think wanting what was in past games makes us elitists. It just means we won't settle.

 

And why should we? These people are trying to get our money, after all. They should be enticing us, not begging.

 

Fallout 3 pissed me off. It was one of the few times that a game's game-breaking bug meant I could not complete a quest, a quest that I worked really hard to finish. Hawk, in his playthrough, by exploring the map ended up skipping half the game. These are bad programming, and should never, ever fly. Because of these reasons, and because of Skyrim's own bugs, I have come to view Bethesda as incompetent developers, and nothing I've seen has shown me otherwise. Maybe you didn't see the glitches, maybe you experienced your own and weren't bothered by them. I was. And because of those reasons, I am very skeptical over the quality of Fallout 4. Before I give Bethesda any money for this game, they need to show me that they can release a product that isn't, in my opinion, broken. 

 

Game companies don't owe us gamers anything. We give them an inch, they will take a mile. We say it's okay to fix bugs with patches--suddenly patches are an acceptable part of software development. We say it's okay to include DLC, suddenly we are inundated with such practices. These things keep happening, game companies keep abusing our trust, and more and more gamers are getting sick of it.

 

I felt that Fallout 3 was an abuse of my trust--the trust that when a game is placed on the shelf, it will be in a finished, working, not glitchy state. Fallout 3 taught me that even if a game is highly praised, well received, and from a large studio, I can still view it as a piece of garbage. Master Chief Collection released broken. Freakin' Tetris released broken. 

 

Trust between gamers and the developers keeps getting tested. Gamers simply don't want to be burned anymore. 

 

I think a healthy cynicism can only be good for the industry as a whole. I think if we can kill this pre-order culture (which, by the way, you can pre-order Fallout 4 now if you want), and teach developers that we expect a level of quality from their games, that pre-rendered trailers -aren't- enough to get us to toss money at them, that we expect to be treated with respect, then we will have less experiences like Fallout 3 was for me. But first, we need to speak with our money, we need to not see a pre-rendered trailer and throw money at a company over some bizarre sense of trust, and we need to be more aware of what we buy.

 

Does being burned in the past and not willing to put faith that "they'll get it right the next time" make me an elitist? 

 

ANYWAY, just my two cents. I see the "E" word get thrown around and get really riled up. Just because I'm not excited does not somehow make your excitement any less meaningful, and vice versa. Could I keep my trap shut? Yes. But we are here to talk about games, and I think we should be allowed to do so. 

 

With all that said, could we all be a bit more polite to each other, and not crap all over the other people's opinions? Absolutely. I'm just as guilty as anyone here. I love good snark, probably too much.

 

And, I'm going to bed. I'm half asleep, so I hope that makes some sense.



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#44 Spark

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 09:06 PM

I think I was a rather extremely lucky individual. Aside from the minor glitch, and the rare freeze, I almost never had any problems with FO3 and NV. I knew of the problems, and I was always apprehensive, but they just never happened.

 

But it did happen eventually. In Skyrim. Dawnguard DLC, the quest with reading the Elder Scroll in the Moth Cave. That quest is perilously bugged for some reason on my copy. I'm talking disappeared entrance/exit, the Elder Scroll just plain not working, the companions dialogue (if any, I wouldn't know) doesn't trigger, and it always freezes after a certain amount of time in that particular cave. And absolutely nothing I've done, including starting an entirely new playthrough, has circumvented it.

 

So don't get me wrong, I know exactly how some of you feel. I guess it really does fall down to the individual experience when it comes to these bugged messes of games. I only experienced one gamebreaking bug in the span of 4 games of theirs that I played (Oblivion, FO3, NV, and Skyrim), and even that was relegated to a DLC quest.

 

So I'd really like to take this moment to apologize to some of you if any of you feel I was a little hostile of your statements. My opinions are colored by my own experiences, and that's something I can't really help, but I can use discretion better in the future.

 

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#45 Ocelot

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 10:24 PM

Y'know what? I actually typed out a huge thing about why I think Bethesda doesn't deserve quite as much scorn as they get for their buggy games. It was along the lines of their games being the buggiest because their games are the biggest, and bugtesting something of the infinite complexity of Fallout 3, with its bajillion permutations of dialogue choices and big decisions and stuff seems like a fundamentally impossible task. It'd be basically impossible for a hired playtesting team to find all the glitches that will be uncovered when five million people start playing the game on day one.

 

But then I realised my opinion was being coloured by the fact that I've never experienced any gamebreaking bugs in a Bethesda game. And then I realised that I actually totally have experienced loads of gamebreaking bugs; I was just able to fix them because I was playing on PC, I'm a compulsive quicksaver, and I have no compunctions about using the console commands to fix all the broken stuff. It's pretty hypocritical for me to talk about Bethesda not being so bad, when I would personally never ever ever buy one of their games on a console because I know how dreadfully buggy they are :P

 

So, yeah, go to town, I suppose. Though I will say that the bug that's brought my current Witcher 3 playthrough to a screeching halt (I'm not getting any XP from quests) is worse than anything that hit me in Fallout 3 or Skyrim, and I still think that game's pretty much a lock for my Game of the Year, Game of the Generation, bury me with a copy of it GOAT. It's going to get patched, and all this unpleasantness will be so many bad memories. I suppose my point is that Bethesda (and CDPR) games come by their glitchiness honestly. They're glitchy because they're incomprehensibly large and enormously ambitious, not because some greedy publishers are trying to get one over on their customers by releasing a broken game, y'know? This isn't a Ubisoft situation, where we get sold broken games because they literally send them to store shelves unfinished.

 

I don't know, maybe I'll get hit with the mother of all bugs in Fallout 4 that deletes my save file and makes my GPU explode and my opinion will change completely.

 

Anyway, changing the subject slightly, I wanted to talk about this:

UvgnrAc.png

 

It's cropped from this official screenshot, and I think it pretty much confirms that Bethesda's sticking with the same Gamebryo engine that was already woefully outdated back in 2008. Something I've always disliked about Bethesda's games is that they just have no draw distance at all. I don't need them to be graphical showcases, but when 'See that mountain? You can climb it' is such a big selling point, it'd be really nice to actually be able to make out what structures might actually lie atop said mountain before I get within fifty feet of them and they pop into existence. I don't want to climb those mountains, because they're brown and completely featureless. They look like the terrain textures in a 90s flight simulator. In Witcher 3, for example, you can see the highest towers of Novigrad for what feels like hundreds of miles; in Skyrim, you walk out of Whiterun for like five minutes and look back to find that it's turned into a pile of rocks.

 

EDIT - btw, sorry about the thread title, I obviously only know one Fallout pun :P



#46 Isundir

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 01:20 AM

Well, they dropped the atrocious goopy-green filter, and went for interesting visual design, even if the visuals aren't great that's still a huge point in Beth's favour. If they learned from Obsidian and NV about how decision making in RPGs actually works, we could have a very good game on our hands.

I certainly have my doubts after the pile of lukewarm mediocrity that was Skyrim, but I'd prefer to wait for some real info.

 

I do agree that the green filter was atrocious but you do know New Vegas had a filter as well right, instead of green orangy but still, luckily both can be removed thanks to mods :)
 

By the way is it known why Obsidian didn't make the new Fallout? When I tried to look it up all I found were sad hate threads about how New Vegas should have been made by Bethesda instead T.T


Edited by Ocelot, 04 June 2015 - 01:51 AM.

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#47 Ocelot

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 01:29 AM

I believe Obsidian is enjoying their newfound freedom out from under the thumbs of major publishers like Sega, Zenimax and Ubisoft. They're kinda semi-independent now, and they've been working on their Kickstarter game Pillars of Eternity and its expansion packs for the last couple of years.



#48 Isundir

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 01:31 AM

I think I was a rather extremely lucky individual. Aside from the minor glitch, and the rare freeze, I almost never had any problems with FO3 and NV. I knew of the problems, and I was always apprehensive, but they just never happened.

 

Post-Morrowind everything Bethesda released went to hell for me, Oblivion died (died=CTD or worse) every few minutes, Fallout 3 died every few hours and Skyrim even blue screen of death me a couple of times (is it called that or am I getting my old 360 anthology confused) and the only game that never gave me any problems; no crashes, no bugs (aside from the occasional stuff sinking through the floor bug), no other issues to speak of was New Vegas. Yet I've heard a lot of people saying the exact opposite on how New Vegas was so horrible crash and bug ridden and Bethesda's titles weren't.

 

Edit* now that I've began modding New Vegas I have been running into freezes though, but it never happened on vanilla or lightly modded playthroughs.

 

I believe Obsidian is enjoying their newfound freedom out from under the thumbs of major publishers like Sega, Zenimax and Ubisoft. They're kinda semi-independent now, and they've been working on their Kickstarter game Pillars of Eternity and its expansion packs for the last couple of years.

 

I see, in that case I'd love to see them start up a new sci-fi themed IP.


Edited by Ocelot, 04 June 2015 - 01:52 AM.

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#49 Rickard the Bearded

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 02:49 AM

By the way is it known why Obsidian didn't make the new Fallout? When I tried to look it up all I found were sad hate threads about how New Vegas should have been made by Bethesda instead T.T


F3babbeies. The same bunch who can't wait for 'Skyrim 2' and complain about how evil the Brotherhood was in NV.

Edited by Rickard the Bearded, 04 June 2015 - 02:59 AM.

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#50 Saber-Scorpion

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:13 AM

Y'know what? I actually typed out a huge thing about why I think Bethesda doesn't deserve quite as much scorn as they get for their buggy games. It was along the lines of their games being the buggiest because their games are the biggest

 

Hah, I typed out a similar thing last night, except instead of just Bethesda games I was going to say RPG's in general, since Obsidian has the same reputation for buggy games. In fact, I'll just post it. :P

 

Fallout 3 pissed me off. It was one of the few times that a game's game-breaking bug meant I could not complete a quest, a quest that I worked really hard to finish. Hawk, in his playthrough, by exploring the map ended up skipping half the game. These are bad programming, and should never, ever fly. Because of these reasons, and because of Skyrim's own bugs, I have come to view Bethesda as incompetent developers, and nothing I've seen has shown me otherwise. Maybe you didn't see the glitches, maybe you experienced your own and weren't bothered by them. I was. And because of those reasons, I am very skeptical over the quality of Fallout 4. Before I give Bethesda any money for this game, they need to show me that they can release a product that isn't, in my opinion, broken. 

 

[...]

I felt that Fallout 3 was an abuse of my trust--the trust that when a game is placed on the shelf, it will be in a finished, working, not glitchy state. Fallout 3 taught me that even if a game is highly praised, well received, and from a large studio, I can still view it as a piece of garbage. Master Chief Collection released broken. Freakin' Tetris released broken.

 

Trust between gamers and the developers keeps getting tested. Gamers simply don't want to be burned anymore. 

 

This seems a bit melodramatic to me. It's extremely hard to release a video game in a perfect state, especially a game as complex as an RPG with all the variables they have at play: customization, stats, inventory, environment interaction, dialogue choices, branching stories... It's almost impossible to polish away all of the problems with such a monster of a game, since if you fix one thing, it very often breaks something else. Even I can tell you that from my slim experience with modding. And game developers have to get the game ready by a release date or risk disappointing and angering consumers and publishers. Obsidian (probably my favorite game developer) is infamous for releasing buggy games, but it very often is the fault of their publisher forcing them to get the game on shelves by a certain date, before it's finished. Personally I've always been willing to cut developers some slack when it comes to bugs. Pretty much all my favorite RPG's are full of bugs even today, and I love 'em to bits, warts and all.

 

That's not to say Bethesda couldn't afford to do better (maybe start by replacing that tired old engine *cough*), but bugs have little to do with my own negative feelings toward Fallout 3 and Bethesda. My real complaint is just their juvenile writing. But I already talked about that over here and don't feel the need to drag it up again in this thread.
 

 

In fact I kinda feel the need to contribute something here besides just :opinions:, so here's a big post supposedly by an ex-Bethesda employee revealing a bunch of FO4 details. It was posted a year ago on reddit, and most people dismissed it then, but it seems to have been accurate so far. Worth a look if you haven't seen it already:

 

RUMORS:

Spoiler

 
The "you can only play as a male character through the main story" thing is... ugh... pretty awful if true. And not just because of any gender politics issues, but because character customization is an integral part of Fallout, and removal of any customization options is a bad sign. What's next? The SPECIAL stats removed in favor of Health/Stamina/Magicka? Hopefully that's false, or they've changed their minds since then.


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#51 Spark

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:27 AM

In regards to the spoiler-tagged rumors thing, I've seen that, and the companion the piece the source also leaked to Kotaku last year. KT's opinion seems to be the post aped off of their leak, and ran wild with the rumor-mongering to fill in the blanks.

 

The script pages call for either gender per usual, so there's some heavy contradiction going on in some relatively viable material. Make of that what you will.

 

Link to that story, if you can stand to use Kotaku for a portion of your day.

 

Scoreboard:

 

  • Kotaku: A confirmed leak that states character can be male or female. Interestingly, it didn't specify if said character is customizable.
  • Reddit: A claimed 'ex-Bethesda employee' (That no one can seem to find of record of anyone under that name ever having worked there, in contradiction to her statement and bluff call) Regurgitating most of the details of the pre-dated Kotaku leak, and sprinkling on extra little tidbits of information that, by majority, have ended up not true. And the ones that did could be easily inferred by anyone with a brain.

 

TL;DR of this whole thing. The named person in that reddit post is still a lying liar who lies. All of the details she gave could be inferred from previous rumors, and actual leaks.

 

EDIT: Added much more detail to the post.


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#52 Joe

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:32 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if that was bull. We had the exact same (word for word, seriously) sob story posted over on the Warcraft community back in 2013 before Warlords of Draenor was announced, claiming that the next expansion would be set underwater and get rid of the class system entirely. It was hilarious.

 

That said, Kotaku is alright from time to time. Kotaku UK actually has some decent writers.


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#53 Spark

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:39 AM



I wouldn't be surprised if that was bull. We had the exact same (word for word, seriously) sob story posted over on the Warcraft community back in 2013 before Warlords of Draenor was announced, claiming that the next expansion would be set underwater and get rid of the class system entirely. It was hilarious.

 

That said, Kotaku is alright from time to time. Kotaku UK actually has some decent writers.

 

Yeah, it's kinda funny how everyone likes to box their BS up in pre-fab'd 'EA spouse'-type sob stories, as if that instantly makes it twice as believable.

 

To be completely honest, that leak never should've gained ground at all. All it did was regurgitate stuff that we have guessed at since before New Vegas hit, and sprinkle it with an outlandish claim that no one in their right mind, unless they were desperately fishing for something to complain about and cite it for 'ruining' the series, would believe. And then boxed neatly in a 'Oh, woe is me, I was fired. I'll sure show them!' Rumors like that hinge on people buying into the sob story.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Pete Hines specifically shot down the bit about the past-gen release. As if that didn't already sound sketchy with the rest of that rumor.


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#54 Patriot 96

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:25 PM

Anybody have any speculation about Fallout 4? I think perhaps that we may see a home base for our hero, maybe that workshop with the power armor in it.

#55 Spark

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:49 PM

Anybody have any speculation about Fallout 4? I think perhaps that we may see a home base for our hero, maybe that workshop with the power armor in it.

 

I think we can pencil that in as a 'maybe'. A little hard to tell at this point.

 

Healthy speculation can go hand in hand with healthy skepticism, so based on what we do know, I can infer a few things already.

 

  • I'm inking my dedication to the theory we're a Pre-War person. Vault 111, by extension to this theory, deals in Cryogenic stasis as their experiment.
  • There's no way the Institute and Railroad won't play a part in the game's events. To what extent is beyond our capacity speculate tangibly at the moment.
  • Regarding the Brotherhood, I just do not know. (Oh btw, there's another little contradiction to the Reddit 'leak'. Their new Citadel isn't in Heathrow International, but rather, Fenway stadium. Also seriously, It's Logan International. Heathrow's in UK.)
  • This being Boston, and from what I can gather from the time I spent there last year, I think it's a pretty safe bet the Metro might play a large part in the game.
  • That scene with the deathclaw in the trailer looks freshly nuked. I guess we're doing that once per game now?
  • Androids, yo.
  • I'm not saying Mirelurks might be back...but they might be back. C'mon, New England and crabs go hand in hand like Geralt of Rivia is with puns. You just can't have them separately. No matter how much it makes you groan.

 

Someone feel free to take it from here, or build off of my speculation.


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#56 Risk

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:55 PM

The engine isn't technically Gamebryo anymore. I believe with the release of Skyrim, they slapped a new name on it and called it the "Creation" engine, which I'm sure is what this game is using. Even though the graphics leave something to be desired, the aesthetic is very nice, it harkens back to the days of late 90's cinematics, which I feel Fallout 3 was close to achieving but ended up looking more like a PS2/Xbox game. I'd say the stylistic shift is on par with what was done between Oblivion and Skyrim, even though that was more for lore purposes and the location it was set in.

 

I can only hope they tie in more elements from the first two games, as they had a glorious atmosphere and lore. I can already notice some subtle references; the classic skintight Vault suit, (which is way more appealing than the baggy suits you start out with in 3 and NV,) the vertibird shown in the trailer moreso resembles its old design when it was introduced in Fallout 2, and the T51b armor actually gets shown instead of being hidden away as a secret in the game or as a DLC addition.

 

I also hope they distance it from the previous two games in regards to the time setting. Fallout 1 and 2 had an 80 year period between each game, and showed drastic signs of civilization rebuilding itself. Obviously we can see some of this with the colorful metropolis in the trailer, but they could just set it during the events of Fallout 3. However, I would like to see it take place in the 24th century.

 

No loading screens would be great too, but... I don't know if that's really possible.


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#57 Spark

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 10:02 PM

It took me a while, but I caught on to that as well. They're definitely going for a distinct stylized look this time. I remember me and a friend started likening the look to the old FMVs and talking heads in the originals and well...it clicked.

 

I think the only part about that I'm not ok with is this means the Vault suit looks like spandex instead of a rough denim/polymer design.

 

EDIT: Was T-51b really that much of a secret? I goofed my way into the set by complete accident by just following random directions. And as far as the 360 version went, Winterized T-51b is what I like to call 'easy mode' in equipment form. Rightfully so, thanks to its hilariously preposterous CND limit. I've got 700+ hours logged into that particular playthrough, and I think I've only taken roughly a pixel off of that line when I used it (which being me 5 years ago, was sort of a lot, but less and less as time went on)

 

EDIT 2: Timeframe wise, I'm gonna peg it no more than 20 years after FO3. Could be less, but I highly doubt it's more than 20. A lot can happen in 20 years. Having 80 or so years between games worked for the original 2, thanks to the fledgling new scraps of civilization being sewn in that time. Once civilization is on its feet (sort of), you historically have a much more compressed timeline in which a lot of stuff tends to happen. To paraphrase and oft-repeated line, history tends to be divided into 10-20 year portions in which it builds up to something major happening.


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#58 Randomman96

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 10:53 PM

 

 

 

Fully agreed, although you're forgetting (or perhaps haven't heard of) what's probably the true worst Fallout game:

Spoiler

 

 

 

Ah yes, Fallout: BoS.  (Not to be confused with Tactics: BoS)  A game SO BAD that it and any chance of it returning has been removed from the Fallout Canon.

 

 The "you can only play as a male character through the main story" thing is... ugh... pretty awful if true. And not just because of any gender politics issues, but because character customization is an integral part of Fallout, and removal of any customization options is a bad sign. What's next? The SPECIAL stats removed in favor of Health/Stamina/Magicka? Hopefully that's false, or they've changed their minds since then.

 

What I feel like they may do is something that BioWare has been doing for a while (IE Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and The Old Republic), giving you character customization but using a common voice actor depending on gender.  After all, they used something like that with heavy melee attacks, as well as getting hit in Fallout 3 and New Vegas.  And they did have different voices for shouts dependent on your Dragonborn's gender in Skyrim.


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#59 Spark

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 02:02 AM

I'm still rather ornery you guys are still putting stock into that BS Reddit 'leak' that has so many holes that it'd put a Portal playthrough to shame.

 

I'm not gonna pull any stupid 'mark my words' thing, but I've got just enough faith in Bethesda to think/hope they wouldn't be that stupid.


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#60 Randomman96

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:00 AM

I'm still rather ornery you guys are still putting stock into that BS Reddit 'leak' that has so many holes that it'd put a Portal playthrough to shame.

 

I'm not gonna pull any stupid 'mark my words' thing, but I've got just enough faith in Bethesda to think/hope they wouldn't be that stupid.

 

Well, just wait until 6:45 PST.  Remember what's going on at E3 today at said time?

 

EDIT: 

 

 

What I feel like they may do is something that BioWare has been doing for a while (IE Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and The Old Republic), giving you character customization but using a common voice actor depending on gender.  After all, they used something like that with heavy melee attacks, as well as getting hit in Fallout 3 and New Vegas.  And they did have different voices for shouts dependent on your Dragonborn's gender in Skyrim.

 

 

Did I call it or DID I CALL IT!?!?!?!


Edited by randomman96, 14 June 2015 - 08:37 PM.

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